The Lovers: Attachment, Passion, and the Power of Choice

Love isn’t a lightning strike—it’s a conscious choice made with a clear mind and a steady heart. In this episode, we take The Lovers card beyond soulmates and fairytales into the deeper work of autonomy, attachment, and inner integration. Using the Rider–Waite imagery—the red-winged angel, the sun that burns through illusion, the Trees of Knowledge and Life, and the volcanic mountain—we explore how symbolism becomes practice: choosing with clarity, respecting edges, and allowing desire without chaos.

We unpack why so many of us mistake drama for passion and how our early experiences train the nervous system to chase what’s familiar, not what’s healthy. Through stories of postpartum shifts, grief for old versions of ourselves, and the changing rhythms of partnership, we talk about what it takes to build a love that can weather seasons. Expect grounded insights and gentle challenges—on calm intimacy versus volatile intensity, “what I need” versus “what I think I deserve,” and daily choice versus passive drift.

We also dig into projection: the parts of ourselves we exile and then battle in our partners, and how integration transforms conflict into connection. If you’re navigating big decisions, learning to trust your intuition again, or wondering whether your relationship still supports your growth, this episode offers both reflection and repair.

Pull a card, tune in to your body, and see what reveals itself when the sun comes out.

If this episode spoke to you, subscribe and leave a review so other listeners can find Heart on the Table. New episodes land every other Monday.

Join the conversation on Instagram @heartonthetablepod

Transcript

Welcome, Community, And Feedback

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Welcome back to Heart on the Table. Thank you so much if you've listened to our few recent episodes. We had our special witch episode that came out on Monday and our episode on the Hierophant on Wednesday. So it was a fun double whammy kind of week. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

We really enjoyed just hearing all of the feedback that you had to offer us and really look forward to continuing to hear from you and make this just a space where everybody feels welcome and like they can contribute.

Building A Space For Stories

Start At The Beginning: Major Arcana

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah. You know what I was thinking too? This can go in or not. We'll just see. This is Premi Awareness Month. Did you know that? I didn't. It is November is Premi Awareness Month. So I'm thinking about that because you mentioned feedback. And I think one of our listeners gave us feedback regarding some of my birth story. And I'm debating on whether or not they fully share my birth story on the podcast. So it just has me thinking about where that fits into sharing on the podcast, if that's something that more people are interested in hearing about. And I think as we're going on and thinking about how we create community between women, community between mothers, like giving a platform to share those kinds of stories is something that I'm thinking about. And I think is something that you're thinking about as well. So we'll get back to you on where we go from here with that kind of stuff. I guess we could say if you're just finding our podcast, you should go back and start at the beginning as we're telling the story of the major arcana. I think that each episode is playing into the next. So if you're just listening to Welcome to our first episode, Welcome to Heart on the Table, or if you're starting with a later episode, make sure to go back and start so you can get the full story of the major arcana as we go through it and share some like mental health themes.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Lovely. And it's been really fun to watch just like which episodes get downloaded and listened to and where they come from, too. Yeah. That's been really exciting. And we could just share a little bit here, but I think we've had like downloads in five different countries. So that's been really fun to see how far it is reaching people.

Growth, Reach, And Gratitude

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, we've had some downloads from England and from Spain, which is so random. So cool. Like I keep seeing these random city names pop up on our buzz sprout that I'm like, I'm Milton on Keys or something was one of them. And I know that's like a town in England. Yeah. So very cool. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So thank you so much for just sharing this with others who might find community in it as well. Like it means a lot and it is so exciting to see.

Introducing The Lovers Card

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Today we are kicking off with the lovers tarot card. It is number six in the tarot, in the major arcana. Number six. It feels like we've recorded so many episodes, but at the same time, we are only on number six of the major arcana. We still have so many to go through. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

We have plenty of content. I think part of it too is our first episode wasn't on a card, so that's seven. And then we did the bonus episode last week on the witch wound.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So that's eight. Yeah. It just feels like I've learned so much about the tarot from recording this podcast. And then when I was researching last night, I was like, we're only on number six. Like we still have so much to go through, which is great. Yeah. I'm enjoying every minute of it, but I'm just like, wow, it feels like we've done so much because we're spending so much time talking about these cards in depth when we're recording this podcast. It's been a really great way to learn what they mean. And there's still so many. Like it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

So they'll last us for a while. And I think like mixing it up a little bit here and there with the different kinds of bonus episodes or mental health episodes or speaker episodes.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Like I'm excited to think about what other like bonus episode kind of things we could do too. Yeah, we'll have to think about that.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

I will say that after this last week with the witch wound and all of the timing, right? We did that on purpose. The timing of it being like the week of Halloween and sampaigne and all of my content now on Instagram is like all of it is about the witch wound.

Social Media Algorithms And Witch Wound

SPEAKER_00 5:16

It's so funny because the heart on the table pod Instagram in particular is always very what's the term looking for it? Tailored. It's very tailored to what our last podcast episode was. But every time I open up my Instagram, I've got I'm it's funny because it's like witches with tarot that I keep getting. It's like witches throwing like pentacles into the air or something. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so funny. It's weird how like how specific the like tailoring or the algorithm is what it is. It's the algorithm. It's weird how truly specific it becomes. Scary.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

It is scary. Scary specific. Yes. And also, this just came to mind. Yes, everything on social media is like fed to you, right? Based on your interests, based on your searches, based on what you talk about. But I did, I sent Brie a message on Halloween. So on Friday, two days ago, as I was driving home, and I was behind a car with the license plate, which I'm like, hey, how does that happen? Like, absolutely. I've never seen that car before. If you're out there and that's your license plate, like it just it made my day. Symbolism of that.

Synchronicities And Quiet Time

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Synchronicity in in real time, real life. We should do an episode about synchronicities. Oh my god, we should. Because that could be such a fun bonus episode. And I have had so many weird synchronicities in my life, hence why I named my podcast or my therapy practice 1111. But that would be a really fun bonus episode. I love synchronicities, many stories. Okay, that's gonna be one that we do. Synchronicities. This is just us workshopping again in real time.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Oh, and I would love to put out a poll to hear about other synchronicities that people have had in their life because there are just some that are so bizarre and so weird.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I feel like I need to sit for a good afternoon and recall the times that things lined up so perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I'm thinking an afternoon in quiet. I had my night to myself last night. Let me just tell you, it felt so good. As moms, I just as people, we all need to be like carving out more time to just be alone. I usually go to my in-laws with my husband because I have FOMO and I really want to go hang out and be a part of everything. And but last night I was like, you know what? I'm gonna stay home. You go without me because they were watching the youths game so late, and man, it was so nice to have peace and quiet. And I'm like, yes, peace and quiet on an afternoon, just journaling about all the synchronicities. That would be really fun.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

It'd be lovely.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I'm glad you got that time to yourself, though.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Thank god, it was amazing. I was just thinking, too, maybe we just schedule it. Like you and me can just go sit somewhere in quiet. Because it's a lot easier for me personally to hold myself accountable when there's somebody else to hold me accountable.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Someone's attached to it. Yeah, no, we should do that. I was saying last night, I was like, it's so much easier to go out and have time to myself because it's easier to leave the house. My friend last night was like, you need that time more often. And I was like, I can't just tell my whole family, like, you need to leave. Mommy needs the house. Bye, you all need to leave. So I was like, that was like Disneyland last night, like just being in my house entirely by myself. But yes, it's usually a lot easier to just leave the house. So we should go somewhere quiet. Yeah, like we could go to a coffee shop or we could go to the library. Yeah. It's like actually quiet. Because last night when I was sitting in quiet, I was like, wow, this is incredible. We'll do that. Okay. I love it. I love the idea. Okay, on to the lovers. Do you want to kick us off with what you notice on the card? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Just looking at this card, again, using the right or wait tarot deck. It's card number six. There is a huge sun in the background that takes up a good portion of just the top part of the card. With an maybe an angel of some kind. This angel has looks like they have wings, red wings. I wonder about the color symbolism on that. Then there are two individuals in this card, which is again unique, right? We've not seen more than one individual on a card this far. Oh no, that's not true. The Hierophant had the two understudies or the two Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Okay. But I think in terms of like relationship, this is the first time we're seeing like relationship in the tarot. Gotcha. Because the Hierifs with the two, like, we don't see their faces. It's just the back of their head.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Gotcha. Okay, yeah. This seems more like a almost like a triangle dynamic between the angel and the two individuals. There's also, I think, what are two trees on either side of the individuals? The one on the left with the woman is like a fruit tree. Like it's probably relating back to the Adam and Eve story. It's got apples on it. There's also a snake that winds up that tree. And then the other side on the right side of the card is the male with what looks to be like a tree with flames on it, I want to say. Like it's looks like the tree's on fire. It looks barren. There's like several treatments on it. Several flames on that tree, or what I assume to be flames. I'm also curious about okay, this card, majority of what we're probably going to be talking about is attachment. And also looking at this card in terms of an integration of opposites, an integration of masculine and inner feminine, I've noticed that the feminine is on the left side of the card and the masculine is on the right side of the card, which I think speaks to just their characteristics. Tell me more. Like the feminine side being more rest, being more intuitive, being the left side of, I don't know if it's like the left side of the brain or the mind or the body, but left tends to generally speak to more feminine side. And right tends to be more like dominant or doing or active. I can look more into that and explain. That was just those are the things that I noticed just looking at this card to begin with.

Duality, Sunlight, And Clear Choice

SPEAKER_00 11:31

We're trying to pass this to each other right now. We're in a different setup today. We've like completely shifted around my office. So we're adjusting to our new. But we both have back support and it feels really good, doesn't it? I feel like this is way better. This is so much more comfortable. I can actually like face Miranda without being up against the arm of the couch. My neck doesn't feel like it's gonna be a huge knot. Oh my gosh, I know. This feels so much better. Okay, I see many of the same things as usual. I think I'm curious about what the angel has like on her head. It's I don't know if it's hair or if it's supposed to be some kind of plant or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Definitely like other world, otherworldly feel to it.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

I notice these like clouds that seem to be between. It's kind of like the angels coming out of the clouds, but the clouds are also between the two lovers. And I also just you cannot ignore the fact that the lovers are nude on this card. They are fully nude, front-facing, and both of their hands look like they're very open. Like they're open to receiving. I think that's what I notice. And then maybe this red is like a mountain. What would you call that behind them? Yeah. Red mountain or red? Something red. Oh, I just got that one. Did you? Okay, let's go into our breakdown of some of the symbolism of the cards. Of the card. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

So I'll just start with figures, the man and the woman. They represent, again, like the inner masculine, the inner feminine, the conscious self and the unconscious self. And they together symbolize duality, which is like reason and intuition, action and receptivity, outer and inner worlds. And when these are united, then love can coexist in harmony. The angel in the background, there's an association with healing and communication. When the individual can make heart-centered choices, then it feels very guided. The position of the angel being above the couple suggests a presence of like higher knowing or higher consciousness in relationships and choices.

Trees Of Life And Knowledge

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I like this too. It says that the sun also with like illumination, it's like when we're making our choices, like this card symbolizes that like we're making clear choices. We're able to see clearly because of the sun, like the sun taking up so much of the card. It also says love sees clearly. It's not an idealized fantasy. And sometimes we have to work through the ways as to which maybe we fantasize or we enter into fantasy in our relationships. It also says what was once hidden is now visible and accepted.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I like that. It's almost like the sun burns through the illusion. Yeah. Like nothing, no illusion can exist in this setting or in this world.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

When we're actually making like clear choices, choices that feel aligned.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

I'll let you do the mountain because you notice that one. What I was actually surprised to read about was the tree behind the man on the right side is the tree of life. And the tree behind the woman on the left side with the serpent is the tree of knowledge. So the tree of life, I'm assuming the placement of what looks to be fire, or like the I think we talked about it on the high priestess, right? Like the pomegranates were in behind her in the tapestry. Yeah, we're in the diagram of the kundalini tree. Yeah. The the placement of where they were at. I'm assuming maybe that's something similar. Yeah, I think you're right. The tree of life being tied to the masculine principle, the active and outward flow of energy. Whereas the tree of knowledge behind the woman with the serpent is representative of intuition and instinct and inward feeling or inward knowing. The serpent suggesting temptation, but also awakening and cyclical transformation. That's what serpents tend to represent in symbolism is renewal. Yeah. And cycles. That's all it's okay.

The Red Mountain And Passion

Crown Of Flames And Conscious Choice

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I was trying to see if there was anything on here that mine was very similar to yours around the trees. Let's go to the red mountain. So the red mountain rising between them, it's a symbolism of a volcanic peak. Ooh. So that makes sense because I was looking at it and I was like, yeah, it's a mountain, but also it's thinking of if I told my four-year-old to draw a mountain, that's what it would be. It's very like just there's one peak. So I'm like, it's not what I would draw as like a mountainous here in Utah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So this makes sense. It's actually a volcanic peak rising between them that signifies passion, desire, and also sometimes the challenges that come with it. Really? Mountains are also the archetype of ascension, growth that requires effort and consciousness. It's the reminder that even sacred connection has edges. Love always asks us to climb higher within ourselves. I'm trying to decide if I go more into that now. We'll come back to that. I also wanted to come back to the plant on the angel's head. So it is a plant. It is the it is a plant. My chat GPT was like, it's not a plant. We're calling it the plant on the angel's head, the flame of consciousness. And then my chat GPT said, it's not a plant. It's a crown of flames or light. It represents divine illumination, the fire of awareness that guides choice from a higher plane rather than pure instinct. And when we're talking about like trauma healing, it is our ability to choose. It's like the prefrontal cortex after once we've gone through like our own healing, right? And reawakened the ability to make choice again versus some of our attachment wounds being the driver of our relationships and the relationships that we end up in that may not feel good. What else do you got over there?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

I was just taking a second look at the card, and I know that I touched on just the fact that the angel's wings are red.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Oh yeah.

Red Wings, Alchemy, And Projection

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Which I don't know. My when I think of an angel in my head for some reason, like the image I get is that the wings are white. Me too. Or maybe if I'm thinking in terms of fantasy, like they're black, but I've never thought about an angel's wings being red. So the red wings are a color of life force and vitality and passion. Red is the color of life and also of blood. So the essence of being alive. A little bit more of a side tangent, not a side tangent, but just a little bit more of a depth take is that um an alchemy, which we've talked a little bit about alchemy before on previous episodes, but an alchemy red is the final stage of transformation, the point where opposites unite and soul is reborn in full color. The union of opposites for this card defines the journey of individuation. As an individual, you have to maybe come to terms with or accept some of what you've been projecting onto maybe previous relationships and just really integrate those within yourself so that that isn't a projection, right? Like in relationship, whether it be romantic or platonic, we tend to project parts of ourselves onto other people because that is a part of ourselves that we haven't accepted within us, right? In relationship with another person, maybe we think that they're incredibly judgmental or they're incredibly loud or vocal when maybe that is just a part of us that we haven't accepted as part of us. We don't want to acknowledge or accept that we can also be judgmental. We can also be loud and we can also be vocal or take up space. And that just tends to be a projection onto other people because it's something that we don't want to accept within ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, I think that's a good way to define projection, right? Like the parts of ourselves that we cannot or we struggle to accept, we notice those and we too become judgmental of those and other people. I have one more, a few more things here. I'm always interested in what the number attached to the card, if the number has a particular meaning. So six is the number of balance after disruption in numerology. The hierophant. I don't know if I would say the hierophant represented conflict and instability. I mean, I guess it depends on your relationship to the spiritual. I guess, yeah, I think so. This just says after the conflict and instability of five, and maybe of five as a number itself. Six brings connection and synthesis, the coming together of mind and heart, masculine and feminine, conscious and unconscious, in healing terms, it's the moment we begin to trust relational safety again after the chaos of survival. The angel emerging from clouds represents the unseen or spiritual realm. Clouds often signal the air element, thoughts, beliefs, and communication. They remind us that while love feels physical, it's also mental and spiritual, shaped by perception and story. I thought of one more thing to say. Go ahead.

Numerology Of Six And Clouds

SPEAKER_01 21:27

I think this comes from the tarot reading that we had done a couple months ago now, is it? Yeah. Has it been that long? It's in August, I think. Oh dear. Um here we are in November. Yeah. Um that the triangular dynamic in this card, if you look at it, the man is looking at the woman, but the woman is looking at the angel. Oh yeah. And that's come up, that came up in my reading, but I think just in terms of like knowledge, like the the representation of the trees behind them, like the tree of life versus the tree of knowledge coupled with the like divinity representation. I was just thinking about how the tree of knowledge represents intuition and inner knowing, which is maybe why she's looking at the angel like a source of inner knowing, but the male is looking at her for that. How it was explained to me in my reading was that the angel passes the message or the knowing to the woman because she has a stronger connection, and then the man looks to the woman for that knowledge, for that knowing or for that intuition.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

How do you think that plays out in like day-to-day?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I think in the last couple of episodes, even that we've talked about like women and intuition and inner knowing, I think that's maybe something we're all searching for or all striving for, but I don't know that there is a strong connection there just these days in general. Again, with the polls that we took on our Instagram stories, like how often are people listening to their intuition versus overriding it in favor of logical thought. So I think that if we're looking at this these cards again as like a they are representative of the human experience collectively, and they've withstood the test of time, right? Like that's maybe why we're searching, why we're searching for that intuition.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

Gaze Triangle: Intuition Chain

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Why we're searching for that deeper meaning or that deeper knowing. It's there. I think we just in this day and age, it's so hard to come by, just given all the distractions or all of the pressures or all of the external stimuli. When we take all of that away, then what are we left with? And I think it can be scary at the same time too. I'm noticing that come up in a couple of like my client sessions, like sitting with oneself. I again comes back to the what matters to you, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

And I don't think a lot of us know.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah. I don't think a lot of us, a lot of us not really knowing or having that connection to who we really are. And I'm thinking in terms of this card too. But I'm thinking about a big theme in therapy, even in the people that I talk to or the media that I consume, is that people are trying to figure out who they are. Who am I, right? And coming back to individuation, as you were talking about. Individuating is when we arrive as a as a separate entity than our like family of origin. Right. Like we fully arrive into adulthood knowing who we are. We're able to know what matters to us. We know what our values are. So we're able to go out in our life and make choices based on those values. But I think that just gets so lost and it's so difficult for people to be able to identify that sometimes with some of the rigid places that we can come from, whether that's family of origin, whether that's trauma or traumatic relationships, right? And people really struggle with identifying like, who are we? Which I think shows up in then being like the lover's card being about more than anything about being able to make choice.

unknown 25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

There's clarity there. There's the sunshine that's like lighting the way. But if we've had that, if we have more of a traumatic origin, it's very hard to land in like clarity and being able to make choices in our relationships moving forward. And all of this coming back to like intuition, right? There's just so many things in our day-to-day that keep us distracted from knowing fully who we are.

Individuation And Knowing Yourself

SPEAKER_01 25:44

It's sad. I was just thinking, too, as I was listening to you talk about individuation. And even in terms of these cards, like the very first card we talked about was the fool. And going back to being a child, I think children are probably closer to knowing who they are than we are. And as a child, as you grow up, you're socialized, right? You're told what's good or what's not good or what's favor. And you tend to, I think there's a splitting process that happens in that, right? There are parts of yourself as a child that get cut off or lost or forgotten. And then I think it becomes about performance. Who do you want to be when you grow up? How the hell does a six-year-old know what they want to be when they grow up? They don't know anything of the world at large.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

But they my daughter right now wants to be a K-pop demon hunter.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

I think again, it just becomes performative, right? Get good grades in school, act a certain way, be friendly to all the other kids. It becomes very much a performance. And so I think even in my own experience, once I achieved all that I had wanted to achieve, right? I went to school. I got my degree. I got a second degree. I got a job. Like, I did all the things I was supposed to do. And I think that comes back to one of our listener questions that we had a couple weeks ago was like, I thought that I had to have my life planned out. We go through all of these steps. We reach what I thought for me was like the end goal and realized, oh, now what? Now what? I don't have a plan for after this. And I think that for me, looking at this card, again, I think we'll talk a little bit more about attachment and relationship and how that is impacted by how we're like the family of origin that we came from. But for me, like what now? Right now, like I am my priority is raising my family, which I never ever thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever be a mom.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Really?

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

I had no idea. Because you are so passionate about motherhood. I know.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Which is a relief to me. I was never told I was good at it, which I don't know that I needed that.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Not at what?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Like being nurturing or yeah, growing up, like I on one side of my family, I am the oldest cousin of them all. On the other side, I'm more like the middle. But whenever there was like a younger cousin just being born, like I don't know. I just I wasn't ever maybe told that I was going to be like, you're so good, like with kids, like Me neither. Never told that. And I specifically remember one instance. I was in my early 20s when one of my younger cousins was born, but I am not even kidding you. I went home that weekend and cried for an entire day. I remember it vividly. Like that day I mourned, I was just like, I'm never going to be a mom.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Oh my gosh.

Changing Priorities And Motherhood

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And I cried about it so much. It was a very cathartic, grieving experience. Was just like I was not necessarily coming to the terms that it would never happen, but like grieving, I was grieving something. And maybe I still don't know exactly what I was grieving, but I did never think that this was going to be it for me. Again, right now, like that is my priority. And I love being a mom. It's hard. It is so hard, but it is also so rewarding. And it just, I'm almost like reflectively looking back at it, I'm almost really glad that I was never told I was gonna be good at it because then I didn't have that expectation of myself. I can relate to that. And again, priorities change, but right now this is it. And I think coming back to knowing oneself so that you can show up as a whole person in a relationship is just coming to terms with the fact that you are going to change. And that is something I think we've talked about previously in other episodes, is that I am like I'm not the same person I was when I was in my early 20s and grieving that I'm never gonna be a mom thought. And I'm not the person I was even like early postpartum. Like I am a completely different person and I'm constantly evolving, constantly changing, constantly learning new things. And I think in terms of the lover's card, like that is also true that two individuals are constantly evolving, constantly changing and showing up as whole selves.

Daily Choice In Relationships

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah. The relationship to change, I think is I don't know if it's directly related to the lover's card. I guess it is. Because like I think if we're identifying that this if the lover's card innately is also resembling choice, right? Like, I think we have to recognize in our relationships that we're always exercising choice. A big theme as I've been learning more about OCD is what if, right? What it's always what if in OCD thoughts, really. And one of those is what if I'm making the wrong choice? What if I'm with the wrong person? What if there's somebody better out there for me? And they're always comparing their partner up against this. What if there's something better? And I think it's important that we recognize that we're always going to be changing. Like you just talking about how like you set out to achieve some things, you achieved all those things and then arrived at like, okay, what now? And you're able to land in your what like what your what now, which is like focusing on being a mom. But I think in when we're landing in our relationships, as this card really resembling like the first time that we're really focusing on the relational aspect of healing, is that we're going to be making a choice every day, whether that's like we're choosing to be with somebody, whether or not we're choosing to leave. But I think in our most like symbolically relationships that are supposed to last forever and ever, right? We should always be evaluating if this marriage still is working for us. If are we choosing to show up for this person, are we choosing to love this person? How are we choosing to exercise that every single day while also holding the duality of, yeah, there probably is somebody better, right? There's eight billion people on this planet, but like you're choosing to be with this one person. I think that with clarity, as we do our own work, we heal from trauma, we heal from the wounds that have maybe kind of clouded our judgment historically, recognizing that like we have the freedom to be choosing every day, right? Like the person that you end up with always taking evaluation. Does this, is this relationship continuing to work? Does it tapping into your intuition? Is this relation, does this relationship feel good? Because of course, if it doesn't, and of course, if it's dangerous or violent or emotionally abusive or abusive of any kind, like you should also be able to make the choice to leave. So we should be holding on to like we evaluate our relationships, but also really recognizing that the relationships that we're in, we have to choose to be in them. We have to choose to water them so that they can grow. I don't know, just you bringing up change reminded me of just like the importance of as we grow in our relationships, as we inevitably will, and as we continue to change, like how do we bring that change forward in our relationship consciously and also make sure that like we choose to change and grow together too.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I love that. I think when you were saying there's gonna be somebody better out there, and that's probably true, and I think too if you're doing your own work, right? Everybody has the responsibility of doing their own work, doing their own trauma healing, doing their own integration of shadow, right? To be a more whole person. And yes, there might be a more whole person out there, but it is because they might be doing their work and the choice to show up and to choose this other person. Like I was just listening to the theme of change or the theme of cycle. There's definitely going to be moments in a relationship where it's not as passionate, yeah, or it's not as like vital. But again, does that serve you? Does that continue to benefit you? I was just thinking back to early postpartum and how even just before my firstborn was born, I was actively grieving the relationship that I had with my husband. There would be days where I would just sit on the couch or on the stairs and have a good cry because I knew that our relationship was going to change and it wasn't gonna be the same. And feeling like I was losing something, but also not knowing what came after, not knowing what came next. And thinking back on it now, that was a way for us to build strength. It was hard, like the roommate stage of like early postpartum, where you're just going through the motion and you're just washing bottles and like sharing the bed with your babies. Yes, that's where I'm at right now. Like, even that in the moment, again feels like it's going to last forever. Like I remember early postpartum sitting in a rocking chair because that was the only way that he would fall asleep. My little baby. And I couldn't set him down because he'd wake up and cry. And actively grieving, like there was a part of me that like I was losing that I had lost right then. I couldn't be out in the living room doing what I was normally doing. And I would grieve that. And after a while of grieving that, I also realized that this the part of my mind that reminded me of the opposite what if? Yeah. Reminded me that this isn't gonna last forever either. It feels that way, right? The days are long and the years are short. Is that cliche saying? Like all cliche sayings, I think they're very, most of them are very true. I'm only coming to realize that now. But even in this card, like the cyclical nature of relationships, and I think the constant asking yourself, is this still working for me? is important. And it's not a question that you just have to ask once, it's a question that you have to ask often.

Cycles, Postpartum, And Grief

Intimacy Vs Intensity

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And also thinking about, okay, you brought up passion, and I'm thinking about the volcano back here being like, yes, like relationships can be volcanic, right? But you bringing up passion reminds me of the intensity versus intimacy thing that I was talking about. Because when we have had traumatic attachment growing up, where relationships felt intense, right? Where maybe we would bring our voices forward in our families of origin and we were met with criticism or defensiveness or a lot of just intensity, or maybe mom and dad, or mom and mom, or dad and dad. Their relationship was quite intense. And maybe we really hated that. And we knew when we were younger we were gonna grow up and we were gonna choose differently for ourselves, but yet we're continuing to find ourselves in relationship after relationship that's that are quite intense, right? Or we maybe have some element of like dysfunction, and yet we continue to choose that. It's important to recognize that we are so comfortable with that, right? We're so comfortable with intensity, feeling like love. Because the thing that I've noticed in being a therapist is even people who come from the most egregiously abusive of situations, they still have this desperate longing for mom or for dad. Where I'm like, we can sit forever about like the importance of walking away from the relationship to mom. And people really struggle with that. And I'm talking about like when there's active abuse continuing to go on, right? And I always tell every single client, I do not have the expectation that you cut off your parent. It's not what I'm trying to do out here. And most importantly, you get to make that decision. I'm not judging you for continuing to go to mom's every weekend where you are actively emotionally harmed. Anyway, coming back to just if those were what our relationships looked like, even if we identify logically, that doesn't feel good. We don't want a relationship like that. Our like internal framework of love is that is intensity. That's the first relationship that we ever knew. It was one that was very emotionally intense or had some emotional abandonment. Then we show up in our adulthood in these relationships that are just like that. And we might be identifying, like, I don't like this, I want to do differently, but man, time after time I keep choosing these kinds of relationships. And that's where I'm like, we have to at some point recognize that passion is not intensity, like they are different. And whenever I talk about that with clients, they're like, but what do you mean? Like passion is supposed to be intense. And I'm like, sure. Like I think at the beginning of a relationship, I'm thinking about when I started dating my husband. I had this thing that kept happening where my ears would turn bright red and they would be like burning. Like I would get a text message from him and I would start blushing so hard. I was like, I need to go to the doctor because my ears keep turning bright red. And it makes me laugh to even think back on that because we're just in such a different, we're in the roommate phase right now. That was very passionate. Like I would be out and about and my ears would be turning bright red because I was feeling so many like things in my body just at the beginning of our relationship. Like I can feel it happening right now, just thinking back on it. And to me, like I did not come. I came from, I had a good half and half. Like my mom, that relationship, I think, gave me a good framework of like relationships going forward. Maybe an anxious one. But my stepmom, she was very emotionally intense. So I've I've had this half, and I can very much feel in my own attachment system when I'm in a relationship, like I historically may have been, that was more intense in a weird way, versus being in this one that's actually passionate. And I would say being in a relationship that is passionate versus intense or intimate versus intense, there is mutual ongoing respect of one another. When you're in conflict, when you're at your most dysregulated, you're still able to move through that without it turning into a big blowout, right? Like a big intense shouting match or silent treatment or whatever it might be. Passion, I it doesn't feel dangerous. It doesn't feel like we're on the edge of our seat. Are we gonna be abandoned? Is this person gonna text me back? But I think that the mutual respect piece is the most important thing to be recognizing as we move forward in our adult relationships and we're trying to choose something differently from those that were intense, like our family of origin. Asking ourselves, do we feel respected? Do we feel like we can bring our emotions forward? And they're met with our partner doesn't always have to agree with us, but are we walking away from those instances, feeling heard, feeling like for the most part, understood, feeling like there was room for discussion, right? Or are we just feeling like that's just not the case? This is one that people really struggle with is the passionate or intimate versus intensity. So I'm like, we have to recognize the difference between passion versus harmful intensity in our relationships.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah. I think too the thoughts that came up were again speaking to like intimacy versus intensity. Does and even there's a card that we talked about uh last week, I think it was, but strength coming from compassion and not from fear. Is this fear-based or is this compassionate vulnerability? The other thing that came up for me listening to you talk about intimacy versus intensity was maybe the I've seen this come up a couple of times in my own work with clients. It's just the is this what I need or is this what I think I deserve? Yeah. With regards to like the family of origin attachment style and that showing up in a partner. Is this what I think I deserve based on where I came from? Or is this what I need? And how different are the two?

SPEAKER_00 42:31

It reminds me of when I was like, I don't remember when the perks of being a wallflower came out, but I just remember watching that movie and when she said we accept the love we think we deserve. I was just like, I love that movie. Me too. And I saw that it was a banned book.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

I don't know but every single book out there is a banned book.

Respect, Repair, And Safety

SPEAKER_01 42:53

I know, I just I think that there is something to be lost because that is really such a good book movie, whichever is important in the fact that like people are trying to erase that. Yeah. If you haven't read it, haven't watched it. Oh, it's so good. Go watch. I love that movie. There are some do your research about it.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

It is a really good mental health story. Okay. So, in closing today, after we've talked a little bit about relationships and remembering like the importance of choosing, the importance of accessing our choice and autonomy as we're moving into adulthood, and maybe we're already in adulthood, right? And we're choosing our relationships, remembering that we now have autonomy and remembering that choosing something different, even if it's something that we identify as healthy for us or more aligned, if we come from an intense family, right? Or if we have intensity in the back, in our backstory, that choosing something different will always feel scary. But that doesn't mean that it's not the right choice. And differentiating in your body between is this scary because it's new or is this scary because it's scary, right? Or harmful. In closing today, there is a little kind of we usually have a closing reflection, but this one I liked because it goes along with our theme of our podcast. Pull your own tarot card to explore how you love yourself or others through integration. So maybe you listeners do this as like your own practice. Pull a card and see or maybe get curious about how you show up in relationships or how you can show up in differently in relationship to yourself. I love that. Okay. That wraps up our podcast on the lovers.

Need Vs Deserve In Love

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yes, thank you so much for listening today. If you have any feedback for us, any questions, comments, thoughts, we really want to hear that. So we have made a Google form and the link is in our Instagram bio. You can go and leave your comments, your thoughts, answer any questions. We really just want to make this a space where you feel like you belong. So come and take a seat at our table. Thank you.