PART ONE: The Importance Of Emotional Support After Birth feat. Lindsay Coultas

Birth isn’t the ending; it’s the opening act of a new life you have to learn in real time. We sit down with postpartum and transition nurse Lindsay Coultas, RN, BSN, RNC-MNN to unpack what happens after the delivery room—where expectations meet reality, consent matters, and emotional support can be as vital as any monitor. Lindsay’s journey winds through pediatrics, psych, occupational health, "med‑surg", and teaching before landing in the moment postpartum “clicked” for her: sitting with a mother after an emergency C‑section, naming the grief, and giving permission to feel it.

Together we break down what a postpartum nurse actually does, why a dedicated transition nurse is at every birth, and how hospital culture mixes strict protocols with surprising superstitions meant to “ward off” worst‑case scenarios. We talk straight about birth plans and why flexibility protects you when things change fast. You’ll hear candid stories about consent, episiotomies, and the quiet ways care can fail when mothers say something is wrong and are told they’re fine. We balance that with practical advocacy: choose providers who listen, write intentions instead of scripts, and trust your intuition when symptoms don’t sit right.

This conversation is grounded in real‑world recovery. We cover C‑section ambulation, managing clots and bleeding, and the overlooked power of rest. We spotlight cultural models where families feed, shield, and tend to new mothers for weeks—and ask what it would look like to build that support here. Expect concrete tips: make visitors earn baby cuddles with chores, align with your partner as a team, and invite women who’ve walked this path to stand near you. The goal is simple and radical: readiness, reverence, and listening to mothers the first time they speak.

If this resonated, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review telling us the one thing you wish you’d known about postpartum. Your story could help someone else feel seen.

If this episode spoke to you, subscribe and leave a review so other listeners can find Heart on the Table. New episodes land every other Monday.

Join the conversation on Instagram @heartonthetablepod

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome back to Heart on the Table. Thanks so much for listening to our last episode on exhaustion.

Introducing Guest Lindsay Coultis

SPEAKER_01 0:58

We really put a lot of thought into that one, just as it seems to be a common theme we're all going through. So if you listened to that episode and you found that it resonated, feel free to share with someone else who might also resonate with it. We're hoping to grow this little community this year. And we are jumping off today's episode with our first special guest of the year. Wow, I feel privileged.

Homestead Talk: Quail, Chickens, Sourdough

SPEAKER_02 1:28

I will introduce our special guest today. I'm like getting emotional already. I just love you. Lindsay Coultis is a postpartum nurse, graduate student, and mom of four boys ages six to twenty one, which means she hasn't slept consistently in over two decades. She's been married for 13 years to an active duty army medic. And after moving their family across Germany, Alaska, and Texas, they've landed in a season that looks different than expected. She's the working mom, he's the retired stay-at-home dad, and together they homeschool their two youngest kids. Lindsay works in postpartum care while earning her master's degree and balancing three jobs, quietly plotting future entrepreneurial ventures along the way. Much of her work centers on helping families navigate what comes next when birth doesn't go according to plan and the emotions that don't neatly wrap up at discharge. Outside of work, Lindsay is in a very real season of growth, therapy, spirituality, discovering new talents, and organizing anything that will sit still long enough. She loves thrifting for antiques she absolutely does not need, thinking she might become an interior designer in another life. She also spends an unreasonable amount of time learning about skincare, color seasons, and collecting animals for the imaginary homestead she is apparently building in her backyard because personal development apparently comes in many forms. Before we like dive into the interview, as far as homesteading goes, what does that look like for you? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Well, it started with quail.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Okay, the quail. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

It started with quail. I found my husband jokingly sent me some quail, I think. He was like, hey, we should get these. And then, of course, me, I research everything. I looked into it and I'm like, you can get eggs to eat. They taste like chicken eggs. They're quieter. They don't require as much space. And I'm like, let's do it. He goes, Oh, I was just joking. And I was like, no, it's a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Let's do it. And you're like, were you really just joking? Right. Obviously, there's some intention behind like, check this out. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Okay. I love that. You have mentioned quail eggs to me so many times, but I still have yet to receive quail eggs. Oh my gosh, why didn't I bring any? I just thought about that. Which is funny because this morning I was gonna bring Miranda some sourdough starters. I feel like we've really gotten the homestead people know. Exactly. Okay, so on the list, I need quail eggs from you eventually. You need sourdough starter from me. Do you need sourdough starter?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

I yeah, I'll take it. We tried sourdough. Okay, and my husband failed to let it survive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

So I'm not sure it'll survive. That's every sourdough starter ever. I feel like you get into it. I got a loaf sitting in the fridge at home that needs to be baked, or if I can get into it for a couple months and then my sourdough starter starts to look like it's rotting. Oh. You know? Like you see, it dies like the black. Is that what yours looks like right now? Yep. Yeah. Which you know, some people on the internet are like, you can bring it, you can bring it back. It's fine. And I'm like, it takes a lot. Do I want to? Do I want to? That's the real question. I don't know if I do. It looks disgusting. Yeah, it's like mold. That's how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Did I tell you I have chickens now? You can now have chickens. I have chickens. When do you get chickens? I got them in September from my mother-in-law. I don't have roosters.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

I've heard that most people that have chickens do not have roosters or preferably would not want a rooster.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, I mean, they're kind of meant to boss around a little. Yeah. I think they're the only patriarchal animal kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Well, really? Chickens? Chickens, just chickens. They're also living in the patriarchy.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yes. Because them the roosters herd them in at night. They make sure they're safe. Or a pleasant patriarchy. Right. Or are they just task driven? And they're loud. They are loud. I've heard they're very loud. They're very loud. So I was like, no roosters. So they're not they're not fertile chicken eggs, but I'm getting chicken eggs now too.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

We've had the intrusive thought many times of doing chickens. And all of our animals are the product of intrusive thought. So I just don't think that we need to do that. But we have definitely debated it off and on.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

We are getting so many quail eggs now, we don't know what to do with them. So I'll just be like, please take them off of our hands.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. Have you ever tried quail egg? I haven't. No. We were at our tax appointment last night though, and our our tax person does homesteading as well. Yeah. We were asking for tips, and he was saying to start with ducks before chickens. I've heard that too. Only if you like to bake.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Bake? Yeah. Duck eggs don't taste as good as chicken eggs.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Really?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

So the more you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

But they're good for baking. They're really good for baking. Okay. They just have a weird taste. But apparently that weird taste is great for baking products.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Interesting. Yeah.

unknown 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

I've heard the quail eggs are good. I've heard a lot of people like, aren't they high in protein? Like higher in protein than a regular chicken egg.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah. Maybe we'll go with quails.

Postpartum Food, Herbs, And Rituals

SPEAKER_02 6:46

They're pretty cute. Whenever you send pictures of quails, they are pretty cute. I feel like there was one more thing related to homesteading that I needed to get off my chest, but I don't remember what it was. Chickens, quails, sourdough.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

I'm I just I finished that book this morning. The first 40 days of all about like how to take care of yourself. Yeah, postpartum. Postpartum through food. And just like the sheer number of ingredients and or like the like all of I feel like I need to start an apothecary now. I've been on like Facebook Marketplace looking for like an apothecary cabinet. I'm like, where can I put this?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

What kind of things are you like looking for? Like what specifically when you're like lots of ingredients, lots of what in the book?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

I I guess it's just hard to like know where to start. Like we bought some things at the store yesterday to start our own little garden because now is the right time to do some of the peppers, onions, garlic. We bought a little seed tray, which then we have to upgrade to some kind of back porch greenhouse. You've got all of the teas that are supposed to be helpful. I'd love to dry herbs and plant herbs and like going all out. Yeah, yes. Where to start? Right. What do you need? How do you learn how to use all of these things? Totally. Make your own tinctures. I even went so far as to make our own lotions. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

When Charlie was little, I was trying to make breast milk soap. And I did. And that's how it is for a lot of my hobbies. I can say, and I did. I don't still, but I I have done that. But we did like the lavender like breast milk soap. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Which part of that book, too, I think I was telling you my intrusive, I want to do that. Was like the ceremony or the rituals for like pregnant moms that like mark that initiation threshold, or like the you know, I think they said something about like gathering all of the the women who have been through birth experience and have them like pick a flower and then make the flower crown, you know, and like just ways to mark each of the steps through the experiences. Like that would be so much fun. Or have you seen some of those videos where like the I think it's prior to birth, but like the mom lays down in this circle and like they all put their hands on like mom's belly. I'll have to find the video and send it to you.

What A Postpartum Nurse Does

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Please. Okay, beginning our interview. So my first question for you is what originally led you, or like what has your path been to becoming like a labor and delivery nurse? Oh, so I'm actually not a labor and delivery nurse. Okay, what are you?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

I'm a postpartum nurse.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Okay, so postpartum that's so there's a difference.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Okay, what is the difference?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

So I don't do the labor part or the delivery part. I I'm not trained in that at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

You told me one time you were in the OR, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Oh, so I transition babies. Okay. Yes. So I'm a postpartum and transition nurse. So I am trained to the postpartum portion. I'm not trained to labor and delivery, but I'm also trained to transition the babies. So at birth, there's always the labor nurse assigned to the mom, and then there's usually gonna be a nurse who's going to immediately be responsible for the baby. And even if later during recovery it goes back to the labor nurse, there's usually at least one dedicated for right at birth, because otherwise you're torn in too many directions. Yeah. So I'm trained to do that transition where I basically decide or help baby choose life. I like that. Because some babies don't. So yeah, I'm there, I'm evaluating. Can babies stay skin to skin on mom? Are they doing well enough? Do they need to go to the warmer so we can do interventions?

Lindsay’s Winding Nursing Path

SPEAKER_02 10:49

So, how did you land at all of this? How did you land? What's been the path to like a post-partum delivery nurse? My path is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, I will tell us. So, I've been a nurse for 15 years, and I actually became a nurse because I was escaping a an emotionally and verbally abusive marriage, and who was preventing me from having a career. And despite the fact that I had career goals, so I was like, I know I'm gonna need to become a single mom. Yeah. Because I already had two kids, and I need a way to take care of them. So I went to nursing school, and nursing was not my original intent, but it made the most sense as a single mom. And I'm actually looking back on it, I'm really glad that I did because it makes more sense for me than what I had originally planned to do. So my very first job, I graduated in 2010, and that was like two years after the stock market crash of 2008. Yeah. And I was competing with nurses who had like 30 years of experience going back into the workforce because they lost all of their retirement. So it was really hard to get a job. And so my first job was like literally going around and doing flu shots for this traveling flu shot clinic. Yeah. And then I got into pediatric home health, which was not the smartest decision for a brand new nurse. I would not recommend that for a brand new nurse ever. That was dumb. Why? It's too much independence for a brand new nurse. Okay. Yeah. Like being in the hospital is better, or even a long-term care facility because you're gonna learn from other people. You need to be able to learn from other people and gain those skills.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

And then I moved on to pediatric psych, and then I started looking at my kids, going, as we all do coming into any psych-related field, we're all looking around at everyone, like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

You need help. And then I was like, that's not good. Then I got a job with the army. It was to a little army depot, worked as an occupational health nurse out there. And then I met my husband. I was gonna ask. Yeah. Actually, he he helped me get the job. Oh, really? Yeah. I met him first, but he kind of ruined my career path for a little while. Sonny? Yeah. For like 10 years. He ruined it because we got stationed in Germany. So I volunteered with the Red Cross. I got my bachelor's degree while I was in Germany. I gave birth to a child in Germany in a German hospital. Yeah. And that was a wild experience. And then I what did I do after that? Oh, I tried long-term care. It is not for me. Long-term care is like a retirement home, like long-term care facility where like they probably have dementia, they probably have some long-term health issues. I some people call it old folks' homes, you know. Like end-of-life kind of care. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah. I mean eventually. Aging care. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I got a job doing med surge, finally. What's med surge? It's the medical and surgical unit on any hospital. So if you're there for any medical reason, any surgical reason, that's where you go. Unless you're more critical, of course. But regular, you're doing okay. You're on medsurge. I learned a ton. I did that for three years. And then we moved to Alaska. And I did nothing for COVID. Did you like pause? Did you kind of like I intentionally paused? Yeah. I had a six-month-old baby. Yeah. So I was like, no, I'm not putting my family at risk.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Was that scary? Like when that all started to come to fruition, like working in the hospitals and or working in just medical. Okay, you want to hear something crazy? Always. That's why I'm a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yes. Uh we literally started our drive to Alaska the day it was declared a pandemic.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Oh, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

So I was already out of the hospital setting because I quit my job in Texas and because we were moving. Yeah. And so I was already out of the hospital setting. And then with nursing, you have to transfer your license to the new state that you're in. Okay. You probably get that. Yeah. Um, and so we moved to Alaska and I was like, do I want to get my license right now? Not really. Yeah. So I didn't even have to work in or during COVID at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

It was unpredictable during that time. I was thinking on COVID the other day, like, what a time.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yeah. And I feel there's like this slight guilt because I wasn't there for my fellow nurses because they were under so much strain. But at the same time, I'm also like, but I gotta look out for my family. Absolutely. Yeah. And so many people ended up not even being able to go home. I remember hearing stories about that. I don't think that was the situation in Alaska, but I'm still like, totally. I'm sorry, guys. Yeah. I'm useless to you.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

So you ended up in Alaska for COVID. And then then what? Then when things started kind of calming down a little bit, I thought, okay, maybe I should do something to like maintain my license. So I got a job doing the COVID vaccine administration. I from there I started teaching. Okay. I started teaching at one of the nursing schools. I was an adjunct instructor, so I did clinical site instructions. And then sometimes I would like substitute for the teacher. And yeah, it was great. And then I realized during that time I can teach everything except OB. Yeah. So then I was like, that's the one, that's the missing piece. Like, sign me up. So then the hospital was having a big hiring event. All of the hospitals there, like they have these big hiring events. And so nurses can come and, you know, do interviews and give your resume and blah blah blah. In Alaska, right? Yep. Okay. And so I did I did one hospital and I was like, I only want to learn OB. And they were like, you'd have to get hired on MedSurge, and then you could become an internal hire. And I was like, nope, I've done my time. Yeah. No thanks. So then I went to a different hospitals hiring event and they were like, Yes, you're hired. And I was like, Oh wow. Okay. So that's how it got started. Yeah. That's a long road. That is. That is a long road.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

A lot of experience.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. And now I juggle that and teaching again. And then I also do occupational health again. Yep. They're not all full-time, by the way. Yeah. I'm not working three full-time jobs. That would be insane.

The Moment Postpartum Care Clicked

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Out of all the things that you have experience in around nursing, what has been your favorite postpartum? Postpartum. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. So your favorite being postpartum, why? Like was there a moment that clicked for you where you were because that was like the last thing that you didn't have experience in. So when you started, was there like a moment for you that you were like, oh, this is what I'm passionate about, or this is what I want to be doing?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, actually, I had this patient in Alaska, and I have to be careful because I don't want to like totally hip up. Yeah, I get that. You speak very generally. Yeah. She had gone to an ER. She was worried about what was going on. She had been sent home and told you're fine. And she was like, No, I'm not fine. And so she came to our hospital and things were not fine. And she ended up in an emergency C section. Wow. Yeah. And afterwards, that whole experience for her was so traumatic that and she was just trying to be strong. And I told her, I was like, you don't have to be strong for this. It's okay. What you went through was not okay. And it's okay to not be okay with that. It's okay to be mad. It's okay to grieve the birth experience that you had been dreaming about for nine months. And the part that really got to her was she was supposed to take off her dressing. And she couldn't do it. And so she asked me to do it for her. And that's when we really had this heart-to-heart moment about everything. And she finally cried and just dumped everything on me. And I was just like, This is what I'm meant to do.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

I know. I'm so sorry. You're gonna make me cry.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

I know. I'm like, we're gonna have to have tissues on deck during this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I was this morning. I was like, why did she agree to go to a thing afterwards? Because she's gonna be all like swollen.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

I mean, I cry all the time. It's just my life. Yeah, okay. So that was when it like clicked for you. Yeah.

Birth Stories, Consent, And Agency

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, you know what? Because I have had my own birth experiences where I was like, you know what? That wasn't okay. Like that my second, the nurse didn't even think I was in labor. Oh wow. She was convinced I had a UTI, was forcing me to drink water. I literally couldn't pee.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Because your bladder at some point just like kind of shuts down.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Uh-huh. Like in labor.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah. During transition, when you're about to push a baby out, it like your bladder basically is like, oh, we're not working. Yeah. We're offline. Not our turn to come out restaurant. Yeah. And so I couldn't give her a urine sample. Yeah. She kept pushing more and more water on me. And I kept trying to pee and I'd get like these drops. Oh my gosh. I know. And then finally I was walking out of the bathroom trying to after trying to give her a sample. And she I was like, I need to push. And she goes, No, you don't. And I said, Then I need to poop really bad, but something needs to come out of me right now. And she finally checked me for the first time to see if I was even dilated. Wow. And she was like, Oh, you're about to have a baby. And I was like, You think? Yeah. And the whole reason why is because my contractions were not stopping. And she put the monitors on me and it wasn't picking up contractions. She was feeling my belly. She couldn't feel any difference. And I'm like, it's contracting. I could barely breathe. I could barely speak. And like I kept having my now ex try to answer questions for me. Because I couldn't answer because I was in pain. Because you were in labor. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so I and then afterwards, I think she felt guilty because she, I think she bought me a milkshake.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

From the cafeteria.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yes. She's like, here you go. Yeah. Uh huh. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

So like that was a crappy birth experience. Yeah. And then on top of that, that one, I had I hired a midwife for a reason. And I didn't want another epesiotomy. And I I was like, his head wasn't really progressing. And she this was back in the day when epesiotomies were very much a thing. And now people avoid them. Yeah. But she was like, Well, I think if he doesn't make progress, we're going to have to do an epesiotomy. And I was like, Well, hold on, let me try changing positions. Basically, she was like, I think we're going to have to do an epesiotomy. And I was like, Let me try changing positions. And she goes, Stop moving. I have scissors. And so I didn't get a choice. And I really feel like if I had been able to change positions, he would have come out.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

You know, without an epesiotomy. But yeah, that's wild. I know.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

And you said you chose a midwife for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Why?

SPEAKER_00 24:17

I didn't want an episiotomy. I felt like I my first birth experience, like I he broke my water.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

And I don't think that was the right decision. Um, so I labored an incredibly long amount of time. I eventually ended up with an epidural. I couldn't feel the need to push at all. And so I wasn't pushing well at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

And then I ended up with forceps, and then I ended up with a hematoma. Oh wow. Yeah. So I was like, I don't, why don't go that route again? Yeah. I want a better birth experience.

unknown 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

I didn't even realize at the beginning of like when I was first pregnant with Charlie that there was a difference between a midwife and an OB. And I didn't know what a doula was. Like I didn't know. But I actually, you see an OB, right? You like your OB. Yeah. My at when I was pregnant with Charlie, I actually switched care at I think I was 32 weeks to a midwife. I just the I was seeing an OB and I was just like, I don't something's not feeling right about this for me. And I switched care at like 32 weeks to a midwife. To Michelle Grepp. And with Charlie, I really I loved my experience with her. I mean, she was present for Grayson, right? But she was just kind of what would she be if the OB is during the sur doing the surgery and she's just like attending. She was just there, like assisting, I think. I don't know what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Crazy. And my even with my very first one, the there was this one OB who was highly recommended. And I went to go see him. He could not remember anything about my chart. He literally helped me unbutton my pants to do my ultrasound. Okay. That's a little bit of a boundary violation. And he couldn't remember that I'd already had a pap smear, so I didn't need one. And every visit he kept saying, Oh, we need to do your pap smear. And I was like, No, we don't. Like, I already had one a couple months ago. And he's like, Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Oh, I don't like that at all. Yeah. So I switched.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Is he still practicing? Is he still out there? I have no idea. Weird. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. I just really think that it's hard to have any birth experience without some kind of disappointment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

You know? Mm-hmm.

Midwives, OBs, And Switching Care

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Or event that you're just like slightly traumatized by.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

So it sounds like part of what had you feeling connected to working with postpartum is the emotional piece and was supporting that particular patient around the disappointment and the trauma. Where did you learn that is important and to give that emotional support? Because I don't think that every nurse is well informed on that piece. And I think you and I talk on the podcast all the time about tending to the emotional piece of motherhood, right? I don't know that that's necessarily always present in a hospital setting. So, like, where did you learn that that was important?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

I honestly think it was from my own birth experiences. I would love to say that somebody taught me, but I just think it was from my own constant journey of emotional healing and then reflecting on my own birth experiences and thinking about the fact that like it's just not talked about. It's just not addressed. And you know what? Maybe give a little credit. I think there was that TikToker I can't think of her name. She's a labor nurse. Jen Hamilton. Yes, Jan Hamilton. I think I had seen a couple of her videos where she talked about it a little bit. And I thought and I think she had basically talked about the fact that it's just not really talked about.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Which is so we're therapists and we've both done the postpartum mental health training. I don't get that. I just don't get how like in every setting we're not informing people who are working with new moms or people who are postpartum about the emotional piece or the transitional piece of like, or like just the trauma-informed piece of it all, you know, like which and it's so prevalent too.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I mean, out of the three of us in this room, it sounds like we've all had some aspect of our experience that was not right what exactly we hoped for or what we cared for. So if everyone, not everyone, but if a lot of people have this experience, then then it's just not there's no change about it, or there's no reverence for it. The book that I was that I just finished this morning talked a lot about, like, you know, having other women who have been through that experience help you through that experience, and I think that's a beautiful thing to have because how do you know what you're going to go through? Like in prepping for this next birth, I'm like, there's so much I wish I'd known the first time.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah. That I just plainly didn't. That's why I'm trying being the keyword here to make more videos. Right now it's on TikTok talking about postpartum, like basically what to prepare for. And I'm just gonna use your podcast right now. Please don't go in with expectations of your birth, be open-minded. Birth plan is almost a guaranteed ticket to a c-section. Don't do it. Be flexible. Have things that you would like to have happen. Obviously, you can definitely do that. But if you come in with this like three-page birth plan, every nurse is going, she's gonna end up with a c-section. Really? Yes. Wow. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

That almost kind of sounds like what we did at the beginning of the year, like the vision board versus the goals for the year, maybe. Yes. Up setting the mood or the vibe for the or the intention of the experience, then yeah. Things you want to happen.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, I almost feel like the universe, if you walk in with this, my birth is gonna go this way, and I want these and these, the universe goes, hold my beer. No, yeah. That's what I feel. And it's like, why universe? I know. I'm a giver of life. Could you respect that just a little bit? Absolutely. But it doesn't, it never does. Yeah. I don't know what it is. It's like, I don't know if it's karma or the universe or what, but it's like, oh no. But also, I think I don't know. I think the hospital is also very, they're just so afraid of liability to they err on the side of caution when it comes to birth.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Right. Okay, this is not anything that I intended on asking you, but it did you talking about the three-page birth plan and all the nurses being like, she's gonna end up with a c-section. There's a lot of superstitions that I picked up on when I was in the hospital. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

We are very superstitious people.

Superstitions On The Unit

SPEAKER_02 31:44

I remember, okay, so somebody there was when I was first admitted, I remember someone was like, they like put I kept hearing the term ward off the spirits. Ward off the juju? Ward off the juju. And someone said, like, we're just gonna, we're gonna keep the c section paperwork over here just to like ward off the spirits, or like there's a lot of that. Uh-huh. What is that? I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah. I thought it was very interesting. I don't know. Cause like it's not like they all have kind of the similar spiritual beliefs or anything. Yeah, totally. But at the same time, like we do talk like we do.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

And after my luxurious eight-day stay, I was just like, everyone here, I'm here and ward off the spirit over here, ward off that spirit, like all the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Especially like the hemorrhage cart. If anybody's starting to look like they could, or if they have high risk factors for hemorrhaging, we'll put the hemorrhage cart outside the door to ward off any bad juju. That's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

It feels very like ritual. Yeah. Which I kind of love. Like, especially in the hospital setting that like some of that is happening because it does feel kind of like spiritual.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

And do you know how many times we've said, oh, we need to sage you? Really? You've had bad luck. We need to sage you. Does anyone ever bring the sage? I offer all the time. I have the sage spray.

unknown 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

And I offer all the time. And they're like, well, then it'll smell like people are doing drugs in here.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

I love sage. I got sage over there.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

I know.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

I know. They did actually sage one person and it jumped from one person to another. What did? The bad luck. The series of bad luck. Yeah. That's so weird. We'll have a nurse who's had a series of bad births. Yeah. And she's, I'm done. When is it somebody else's turn?

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah.

unknown 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

It's almost too bad we can't warn the patients. Hey, just so you know, her nurses have a series of bad things. I want to ask for a different nurse.

Emotional Support And Partner Dynamics

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Oh my gosh, that's my anxious ass would be like, get her out of here. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. I just remember hearing that all the time, like ward off spirits, ward off spirits. Well no, that they were warded off in my case. They were not. They were not. Okay, let me ask you, what do you notice changes in a mother when she does feel emotionally supported?

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Well. You know what? She is less less tired, right? I'm gonna dig on dads. Okay. It's fine. Uh a lot of dads are useless. I almost wish that mothers or mother-in-laws would be the ones to stay the night. Although sometimes I've seen a couple that do stay the night, and you're like, you aren't any better. Sure. Not often though. But like she's gonna feel, I don't know, just I think she's able to bond with the baby better. I think that she's a lot more confident because she knows she's not doing it by herself. Yeah. And you know what? That actually really kind of gives me my own aha moment because with my first, it was a rough recovery. And I remember crying, being like, I'm not ready to take this baby home. I can't believe they're letting me do this. Yeah. And um and I did not want to leave the hospital. And I knew my mom wasn't gonna be there for a little while. I think I started realizing that I had made a huge mistake in who I chose as a life partner. One of the things that I do when I'm discharging my patients when I'm doing my discharge teaching, because I went through this with both of my partners, like I just started hating them. I was like, what is wrong with me that I am hating this person that I chose to bring a life into this world with? And then especially after the second, you know, my husband now doing it with him, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm the one who's broken because I thought that this was a much better partner. Yeah. So when I'm discharging my patients, I will say to them, So you're the dad, you're the mom. Say, just remember, he's not the enemy, the baby's the enemy. Okay. Call team up together and conquer against the enemy. Yeah. Because when that baby moves out, you're stuck with this guy. And because I feel like it kind of introduces the fact that you might feel this way, you might feel unsupported by this person, you may feel like it's unequal in the care or whatever, and what you're feeling is normal. Yeah. I don't know if that actually comes across when I'm telling people this, but I try to tell it to everybody because I feel like at some point, and maybe I'm projecting, but I feel like at some point they're going to feel that stress and frustration with their partner and feel unsupported. So it's funny because here in Utah, family is a big thing. And sometimes it stresses me out as the nurse because I'm like, you guys, let her sleep, let her rest. This is her time to bond with that baby and rest.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Why are there so many visitors? Yes. But at the same time, I also have to like remember this is their support system. Hopefully, this is their support system.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

And hopefully they're there to support the mom. Yeah. Not just see the baby. Because I know that in my experience with therapy for new moms, there's a lot of disappointment around like the way as to which family did not show up, but showed up.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yes. If I do see a lot of visitors, I will tell them make people earn the right to hold that baby first. I love that. Make them do something for you before they get the right to hold that baby. Because sitting there and holding that baby isn't doing you any good. It's true. Yeah. Make them sweep the floor, make them do a load of dishes, make them do a load of laundry, make them do something, you know, or even just, hey, I'm gonna go take a nap for an hour. Can you take that baby? Because two hour stretches between feeds is not enough. No. Children are a form of torture.

Cultural Practices And C‑Section Recovery

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. And it's hard when there's no community. You know, you saying like sometimes you wish that the mother-in-law would come stay instead of the husband. I think that comes back to the importance of like being surrounded by other women who know who get it, who know what you're going through. I think Tori in this in both experiences, and I I think particularly because I had a doula. The first time my doula had the same doula both times, but she obviously couldn't be the same kind of presence as she was the second time around. She was very helpful in like getting Tori to know what to do to help support me during my birth, right? And even with Grayson, she came and just stayed with me like the day after, which like God bless her, because she's also a nurse and she's going to school to be a midwife. So like the fact that she came to just like she just sat with me. I think she stayed until like two in the morning, the day. I don't remember, maybe it was the day that Grayson was born. I don't know. It's all a blur. But like just having her there was so I don't know. I feel like sometimes women, you know, of course we want dad to be there, but I just feel like women being present and surrounding the mother with their presence and that support is so needed and isn't it's nurturing. Yes. In a way that I don't know that men can be. Yes. Not that they're not, but I just they don't know. They just don't. And Tori's told me so many times that he how he feels helpless because he just doesn't know. At least he's verbalizing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I feel like most men don't verbalize it. That's true. They're just like, meh, whatever. Yeah. I don't get it. I do love that men are there to appreciate what their wife went through or their partner went through, but there are, I feel like there is sometimes that block where they're just like, I don't get it, so I'm not gonna try.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And what drives me nuts is, and I have been known to say this to dads, which is probably not appropriate, but when they're like sleeping hard or they're like, I'm so tired. I'm like, yeah, it must have been really hard giving birth, huh?

SPEAKER_02 41:11

I love that. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Because if my work found out, they'd probably fire me.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

But it's true. What has working in birth taught you about women and their strength?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Oh, women are incredible. I don't know. Sometimes some of these women, they get up after having a surgery, a major abdominal surgery, and they're walking around like nothing happened. And you're like, I know that you are terrified that your your guts are just gonna fall out. Yeah. I know that that is in the back of your mind. And some women, I've had women who've had a fourth degree tear which goes all the way to the rectum. Wow. And they're walking around like nothing. Women are incredible, but I also I love and I also can't stand the women who culturally they are meant to like not tolerate any pain at all. Yeah. And I'm like, come on. But also at the same time, I'm like, I get it. Sometimes I play it up too when I'm sick. I get the man cold sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Sometimes I fantasize about getting sick so I can just lay in my bed. I'm like, I just want to lay here, like unbothered.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Right? There are some cultures, and this is actually probably more fascinating to me, is how many cultures like how birth is treated in different cultures. And there are so many countries, so many countries where you are not expected to do anything. There are some cultures where you're not even supposed to walk.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Yeah. I heard something recently. This is what I was talking to you about about like you stay in bed for a week, then you don't leave the room for a week, and everyone brings you your meals. It's some kind of like three-week something that I've recently been hearing about.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Vietnam. Uh-huh. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

They have that. Like I had a patient who was Vietnamese recently, and actually two, and both of them ended up with a C-section. And the set so here's the tough thing about C-sections. When you have had a C-section, you need to be up and walking as soon as possible. And now you were really up in my room.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Like, you've got to come walk around as fucking. I know. And I was still sick. We didn't really quite know. At least I didn't quite know.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Yeah. I was like, if you don't, that gas pain is gonna build up. I didn't get any. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Thank goodness. But you also don't remember a lot of things. It's true. Yeah. So you may have been up and moving more than you remember. It actually made me laugh because she was telling me, I think it was the the second time I had you as a patient. She was like, Yeah, this one nurse, she made me get up and made me go see my baby. I remember that was you.

unknown 44:09

You didn't. You did not.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

You were telling me about the nurse who made you get up and go see your baby.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

You know what? I think that you're right, but I think when you told me that was me.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

I didn't tell you for a long time. Did you not? No. I was just like, she was like, Yeah, she made me get up and go see my baby. And I was like, good for her.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

But I just know I know that the second time I had you, Tori told you when you left the room when he was like, She cried as soon as you came back in. Because we'll get to we'll get there. I'll put a pen in it for now.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

But yeah, there was a lot of things you don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Back to C sections and walking around.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah, I love it. There are some cultures where. You're not supposed to do anything. And I'm like, how did America get so screwed?

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Don't even get me. We've talked about it.

America’s Interventions Vs Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 44:59

We can do a whole nother episode about that. We talk about it all the time. And the weirdest thing. So I told you that I gave birth to my third in Germany. Yes. They didn't even do fundle rubs afterwards. Like I think they might have done it the first couple hours. And then after that, they just didn't. And so since it was my second or my third, and I had already had so I'd already had two babies, so I kind of knew. Plus, I was already a nurse. And so I'm like in the shower doing my own fundle massages. I'm like, I don't remember how they do it, but I remember basically felt like I was getting punched in the stomach. So I'm like trying to be tender but also rough. And I had a huge clock come out. Huge. So I went and I got the nurses, and I was like, hey, like this just came out. And they're like, oh, it's fine. And I'm like, is it? Yeah, totally. Is it fine? This doesn't feel fine. Uh-huh. In America, this would not be fine. Yeah. And we have the highest mortality rate. We have the most interventions. Yeah. And the highest mortality rate.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Well, something you were saying earlier, too, was just that like hospitals tend to be overly cautious. Yeah. Because of liability, but then at the same time also denying like a woman's intuition about what's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

You're right. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Like, how does that make any sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Like, why are why are women in what we feel like your first patient that you or like the patient that you really felt like it clicked for you? Yeah. And even you, and it in your story, right? Like with your second. Like, why are we bypassing a woman's own intuition about what's going on within her own body? We should believe her. We should believe her.

Trusting Women’s Intuition

SPEAKER_00 46:49

I try to do that all the time. If somebody's like, hey, I feel like something's wrong. Can you please come check it? I don't ever go, oh, you're fine. I will walk through everything. I will tell them, okay, this I'm checking this, I'm checking that. So far everything looks normal, but keep an eye on it. I don't ever say, oh, it's fine. Don't worry about it. I always say just keep an eye on it. If it gets worse or nothing changes, we'll look into it again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

This makes me think of with my with Charlie with my first. So I also had pretty clampsy with her. And they, you know, whether I don't believe it. It definitely wasn't as soon that it became an issue, right? It was at like, I think 37 weeks that the protein spiked and everything. And Michelle was like, we need to have you come tomorrow morning to start your induction. And you know, it was great. I didn't really know what preclampsia was. I just knew I had a lot of friends who have also had it. So I was like, not really stressed, not worried, ready to get the baby out, wasn't really worried throughout my like labor. Didn't understand postpartum preclampsia. So with Charlie, I did stabilize after like two days. And they sent me home. But my blood pressure was still kind of scooting around a little bit, like up to one 130s, which isn't necessarily super high, right? But like I went home and the night we were discharged, I went to the bathroom and had a huge, probably like that big of a clot come out. And I just got stressed. And in my stress, I was taking my blood pressure, which obviously I'm a little stressed. My blood pressure's gonna be spiking, but I started to get really blurry vision and my blood pressure was like 160 over 90. I told Tori, I think we need to go back to the hospital because this, or I called and one of the doctors was like, No, like, you know, she was like, No, like, you know, you just came home. I just I felt like it was minimized. So I did go to the emergency room. And the emergency room, they hooked me up, my blood pressure was high. It stabilized in the time that we were there. And then he was like, Yeah, no, I just spoke to so-and-so, the other like OB that I had talked to on the phone. And he was like, you know, you just gave birth, like, I think you're fine. But now that I know what I know, part of me questions if I shouldn't have been admitted that night. Yeah. Like the fact that my blood pressures, especially how severe it was this second time. I'm like, I don't know. I feel like if I would have gone up to labor and delivery, if I would have gone back, they may have admitted me. Yeah. I something was wrong that night. And it turned out fine, but like, I don't know, intuition. Something I really feel like it was again, and fortunately, it seemed to have just worked itself out.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

I just had a patient who was coming back just to visit their baby who was still at the hospital. And she said, I've been having some gushes, and is that okay? And I asked her the normal questions, Are you soaking a pad in an hour? She's like, Oh, not really, but it's really big gushes. It's like almost. And one of the OBs met her in the the elevator. She showed her pictures of the pads, and she's like, Oh, I think you're fine. I had talked to the nurse who was escorting her down, and I was like, I don't think this is okay.