Justice: Facing Yourself Without A Blindfold

Justice is one of the most misunderstood tarot cards, and we wanted to slow it down and tell the truth about what it asks of us. We start with the basics and then go deeper: the Justice card as number 11 in tarot numerology, the two pillars as a threshold, and the upright sword as a symbol for cutting through the veil. Instead of treating Justice like a verdict, we treat it like a skill: learning to see clearly and live on purpose.

From there, we widen the lens to real life and mental health. We talk about how doomscrolling and constant “big picture” fear can disconnect us from our inner world, and why staying connected inside is sometimes the most radical way to keep going. We name the limits of control, the weight of uncertainty, and the small but powerful places where our choices actually matter: our responses, our relationships, and the way we meet our own needs.

The heart of this conversation is shadow work. Justice isn’t only about what looks good on paper; it’s about holding the whole self on the scales, including the parts we label selfish, angry, needy, or “too much.” We explore how values change over time, why buried traits tend to resurface anyway, and how compassion can create the balance we keep trying to force through perfection. We also share a striking Irish folktale (via Jessica Dore’s Tarot for Change) that shows what happens when we refuse the “grotesque” parts of ourselves and what becomes possible when we finally turn toward them.

If you’ve been craving more self-trust, more inner authority, and a way to create change without abandoning parts of yourself, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves tarot and psychology, and leave a review if our work supports you. What part of yourself are you ready to meet with kindness next?

If this episode spoke to you, subscribe and leave a review so other listeners can find Heart on the Table. New episodes land every other Monday.

Join the conversation on Instagram @heartonthetablepod

Transcript

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Welcome Back To The Justice Card

0:51

welcome back to Heart On The Table. Thanks so much for listening to our episode, our last episode with Rhiannon, if you had the chance to listen. Um, really enjoyed, uh, kind of having the opportunity to allow her to share her infertility story. Um, and it seems like it resonated with a lot of you. We had a lot of, we've had a lot of downloads and a lot of listens, and through Rhiannon, I've seen some good just feedback on that episode. so today we're going to kinda jump back into our tarot journey, and the next card we'll be talking about today is the Justice card. it is card number 11, which is interesting actually now that I think about it. I was just- Yeah gonna dive into, like, the sym- symbolism- Mm-hmm But there are two pillars- Yes on this card, on either side of this individual, and so the fact that this is 11 and there are two pillars, it... I mean, I guess maybe I'm reading into it, but- No, you're not reading into it- because in my research on this episode, there was some of that kind of symbolism. Uh-huh. Like, it is card number 11, and it was like there, I think that there is some, let's see, kind of throwback in the imagery of this card to, I think it's The Magician and The High Priestess. Yes. And I think The Magician is, what, card number two? Yeah, 'cause it's, it's the fool. The fool's zero. Fool's zero. Mm-hmm, and then High Priestess is two. Yeah, so it was, like, one plus one equals two, and then one, like, it, it brings us back to The Magician, Mm-hmm and there are some similarities between, like, the way that the- woman in this card, like her sword is pointed upward similar to the magician as well. there's like some numerology- Mm-hmm symbolism there. I was just looking up the numerology of 11. it's a master number-

Numerology 11 And Card Symbolism

2:52

Oh that signifies high intuition, spiritual illumination, and visionary insight. Okay, I like the visionary insight. That feels applicable. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There is a, little note here that says that people that walk this path are meant to learn how to trust their inner voice and guide others without self-doubt, which I think we can get into a little bit later- Yes when we talk about, like- The in-depth meaning of justice is maybe not what, at least not what I thought it was when we were- Yeah talking about doing this card. So that was really interesting. Mm-hmm. did you say that that was like a numerology meaning? Mm-hmm. In the meaning 11? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's interesting. Now, like I'm, I'm making that connection. Oh, yeah. 'Cause I'm like, oh, I knew what you said, but I, it like didn't land for me until I asked my follow-up question. Okay, that is interesting that 11 has that like same meaning- Mm-hmm that we've been discussing prior to hitting record. Mm-hmm. That's so funny. Yeah. 'Cause, okay. I was like, wait, that's exactly what we've been talking about. I'm making my own personal connection 'cause the date of my birthday is 11. Yeah. That's hilarious. Well, and my- Thinking about that in context to myself. Yeah, and my therapy practice is 1111 too. Yeah. So, interesting. do we wanna go down just some of the imagery of what we kinda see in this card? so we kinda already talked about the, the two pillars on either side of this card. a little side note to like it acting as I think like a, maybe a gateway or like a portal to, what we're going to get into w- a little bit, which is like that light and dark side or like the, The experience versus like the shadow of the experience. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's just that duality piece to, I think, almost every card that we've talked about, the balance. Yes. Everything hangs in a balance. Mm-hmm. And it's maybe not always a 50/50 balance, but like a- A spectrum of a balance. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. one of the things I think you'd already mentioned was the upright sword. The upright sword in this card. Which, do you remember what, in the Magician, like the pointing of the upright? I think the pointing of the upright was like maintaining connection to Like, is it the spiritual piece or is like the knowledge piece? I don't remember. I think for the magician, what I remember about the, the up and the down, right? 'Cause the magician has one arm up and one arm down. Mm-hmm. But like the, the illumination piece of like the, as above, so below. Oh, yeah. So like, as things are happening in context of like your reality, they're also happening within you, right? Like, I think we, we tend to forget a lot of the time that we have inner worlds because we're so used to existing in the outer world. Like we're so used to our existence as it, you know, concerns society or other people or our relationships, that we often forget that we have a very intense inner world happening, right? Like our inner world gets it ignored or like our relationship with ourselves gets ignored- in favor of things that we can see or touch or, you know- experience with the senses on the outside. that leads me to thinking that something that we talk about often on this podcast too, which is like we just live in a world that keeps us very disconnected from our internal experience as well. Mm-hmm. I was reading something this morning on Threads that was just... I've been trying to stay off of Threads 'cause it's a lot of doom and gloom. Mm-hmm. like climate change, kind of doom and gloom. Mm-hmm. But there was somebody on there that was just in that, like in that, right? Like doom and gloom, what, like what am I le- what is gonna be left for my children, my grandchildren, my... Like it just feels so bad, and I think the end of their post, they were just like, "How is everyone continuing to just go, go along," right, "and act like nothing is happening?" Yeah. And somebody said in response to that, like, well, that is what, that is what the forces that be, right, the forces in the external world want us to believe, is that we're helpless and that there's nothing that we can do

Staying Connected Amid Doom News

7:07

and so that we just kind of like lay, like, like roll over, right? I think maintaining connection to our internal world is the point. Mm-hmm. Right? Like is the, it, it is the whole point of, continuing on and connecting to like the internal part of ourselves that experiences like the magic of the external. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like it, like letting it land that like it matters and it's still something worth fighting for. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I've personally noticed myself because I haven't been reading the news as much or haven't been on my phone as much because there's just so many other things that require my attention- throughout the day, which is fine. Like, there's balance to it, right? Being informed and in the know and also knowing when it's too much. Mm-hmm. I will say I don't know that I've been, like, any more happier not reading the news, but I tend to notice that when I do look at the news or read the news or am in the know with what's happening at large, like, it does tend to feel that doomy and gloomy. Feels so heavy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you also are faced with the fact that, like- You know, what control do you have over any of that that's happening? Truly. We don't really have control over anything in our lives. It's true. And coming to terms with that is really hard. But I try to remind myself and I try to remind, my husband too that, like, we only have control over our own selves, our own experiences, and maybe even the influence that we have in, like, our, our immediate families. Mm-hmm. Or being kind to a stranger, like, you know? Yes. Out and about. Like, I think I'm a, I'm a believer that, you know, you do good things for other people and it will come back to you. Mm-hmm. In, in a, in any other way, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So... All of this connects back to this card, I feel like. some of the other, like, symbolism here, I see, like it's a very regal, I do believe it is a woman from the reading that I did, but it's a very androgynous woman. Mm-hmm. Which most of the characters in the... Most of them are in the tarot. There's some that are very, like they embody female or they embody male, but some are, like a lot of the ones where it's not like the empress or the emperor, the ones that don't directly call out that this is a, like female or male kind of archetype, like are more androgynous, I would say. Mm-hmm. But yeah, there's very regal, like we're in a very regal red robe. the two pillars. similar to the high priestess, there's the, what do you wanna call that? like behind. What is that? Like a sheet, but not a sheet. It's like something- Like a tapestry? A tapestry. Yes. Like, it's just a sh- a bedsheet- Yeah there's like a red tapestry that's kind of blocking out what seems to be some like yellow in the background, which is also similar too to like a callback to the magician- Mm-hmm I would say. Mm-hmm. Well, I think we've talked about like the, the color symbology before. Yeah. And the fact that it's kind of, you know, like you can peek into the background. Mm-hmm. And the background is yellow. Yeah. I think calls to like- Just that, not restraint, but just remembering. I think red is very much symbolism, like symbolic of passion or of, vigor or of, like just vitality or, or- Yeah and I think yellow is very much like the illumination piece, right? Mm-hmm. Like the keeping in mind That there are probably things happening in the background that we may not understand. Yeah. Or maybe being curious about the deeper meaning- Mm-hmm behind things. Um, I also noticed maybe some of that same symbolism with there's one foot peeking out- Yeah, I noticed that too at the bottom. And it's the right foot. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I wonder if there's any symbolism there with it being the right foot. cause right versus left, right, is, is typically more like doing energy. It's true. Mm-hmm. Whereas like left is more like being- Yeah energy. and the sym- symbolic color of white being I think like clarity. Mm-hmm. Or, like that, I think it's like that spirituality piece, like the seeing, the seeing straight through. The, the, Clarity of choices that aren't impacted by, like, our emotions or our thoughts or things that we may experience at war within ourselves. Yeah. I think there are a couple of different reminders in this card. The background, the, the shoe, and even like the upright sword of like remembering to cut through kind of like the The veil or the facade. Mm-hmm. Like the mask, like cutting through to the, the deeper meaning or the heart of, of whatever it is that we're experiencing. Yeah. there was something that I was reading about in my studying up on this card that was talking about how in the tarot, like in the tarot picture, at least in the common deck that is used today in modern times, that there's no, there's no blindfolds on the person that we see sitting here. Oh, the Roman goddess of justice. Mm-hmm. So the Latin word for justice is Justitia, and the origin of that is the Roman goddess of justice. And the Roman goddess of justice, is often, well, is always pictured as, very similar to what we see on the tarot picture. Like,

Justice As Clear Sight And Choice

13:07

she has the, uh, what are those weighted things called? Scales? The scales. Jesus. The sword. Um, all of it's very similar except for she is wearing a blindfold. And I was reading that the tarot very intentionally has kind of painted this picture without a blindfold because it is important for us to, kind of see our past and learn our past in order to bring justice into our life intentionally today. Mm-hmm. and I just, I liked that. There's just something about that for me with this being, like, the mid- like, the midway point through the Major Arcana story, that, like, we have to be connected to all that has happened- Mm-hmm to be intentional about making choices moving forward in our life, and we do that, right? It's, justice is not something that just happens to us. Like, it is something that we have to intentionally bring upon ourselves. so yeah. I just, I liked the choice to not have a blindfold on the character here in the tarot. Mm-hmm. and when you initially think of justice, like, I think it's very common when we encounter the justice card or just when we think about justice, like, here in Western culture, right? Like, my brain immediately goes to, like, the legal system or- Which is an entire, like, when I think of There's also a part of me when I think of the legal system that I think flawed. Absolutely. So. Right. Which it's just funny that like j- I'm like, "Oh, justice," like the legal system, this is legal. Or we're thinking about like, oh, like you've been wronged. Like how are, how is justice going to happen to you? Mm-hmm. Right? Or how are you going to get justice? versus everything that we... is really more about like how we intentionally bring justice upon ourselves and upon our own, our own life. Mm-hmm. Because coming back to like so much, there's just almost everything in life is outside of our control except for our, our own really internal experience and how we, how we choose to respond to the things that happen to us. You know, which i- it's not to say that, it's an easy choice often to, you know, choose something very intentionally or, you know, there, there's sometimes privilege in being able to choose how we respond, too, right? Mm-hmm. Like I think that's a always an important call-out. But, like our internal experience is the one thing that we can, you know, sometimes intentionally use. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I think, too, like if this is, we're talking about this in the context of individual experience, right? and maybe we all live in different worlds because that is just the experience of each individual reality. Yeah. but I think when we tie this back to our own individual experience and really get down to like what about life that we value, right? Like 'cause everybody has different values. What I value even today is not the same thing that I valued even five years ago. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, and those are constantly changing, and they're not stagnant. And I think when it comes down to it, like- We tend to seek justice for things that do or don't align with our own values, right? But I think in the context of the individual experience that typically splits our maybe psyche into two. Mm-hmm. Right? All the parts of ourselves that we tend to favor or adore because of XYZ, right? Like, maybe how we were raised or

Shadow Work, Values, And Inner Conflict

16:52

the external society experience at large shapes those aspects of ourselves, right? Mm-hmm. the selflessness, for example. Like, that's maybe something that was shaped at a young age and/or is valued in, in a larger context. Yeah. Right? So then we split that part of ourselves, and so selfless is, is seen as a better character. Mm. Mm-hmm. I guess. I, I'm, I'm kinda grasping for words, but, like, selflessness versus selfishness, like, right? We all tend to have both of those things within- Mm-hmm ourselves, or the capacity for both of those things, right? And it gets split off because it's valued in- Yeah in, in- In extremes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, but we for- we forget that it's also okay to be selfish, right? Mm-hmm. Like, in, in some capacity or another. And so recognizing that that in itself, that quality within ourselves tips the scales, right? So justice isn't- Mm always in favor of maybe what we are hoping to amplify or showcase about ourselves, but more so about, like, what is the other side to that, the, the, like, shadow side to that, that we have split ourselves off from, that we're not- Honoring or acknowledging or letting come to the surface, right? Yeah. Which tends to, if you push that so far underneath the surface, right, that you don't want it to come up, and you don't want people to see that part of you, it tends to show up anyways. Yeah. Uh-huh. It tends to show up when you least expect it, tends to show up when it's not convenient. Mm-hmm. So I think when we ask ourselves what's important to us or what we value, I think it's equally important that we entertain the opposite of those things, too. Yes. I like that point. you know, even the things that we, we may kind of acknowledge that, like, we don't like about ourselves too, right? Like, A whole thing about the justice card, too, is, like, having understanding for how those things even came to be. Mm-hmm. Right? So in your example of talking about, like, you know, society kind of favors selflessness over selfishness. So if we have this part of ourselves that, you know, we deem as selfish and, you know, we also identify, like, oh, it's bad to be selfish, right? Because that's what society has told us. Well, we bury that part down, and we develop sort of like a disdain for it instead of recognizing, like, it too belongs, right? And at one point, if there's this part of us that we deem as selfish, well, that was born out of some need. Mm-hmm. Right? And also, like, maybe it's not bad. Maybe it's not bad to sometimes, like, have a need to favor ourselves- Mm-hmm in our own internal experience. Mm-hmm. Right? And, like, how much, Ooh, what's the word I'm looking for? How much, conflict, internal conflict comes from us really trying to disconnect from that part that just is there, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. it's making me think about, like- There's just so much internal conflict, I think, for, for everyone, right? Like, it's normal in life to have internal conflict about, you know, maybe things that have happened in the past or some parts of our stories and our, our upbringings or whatever it may be that, like, we really don't like. When I say we really don't like, right, like whether it was our, something that we did versus, like, something that was acted upon us, right? Like, whether it was trauma that was created, for us, or grief or sorrow or regret or whatever it may be. But, like, part of justice is also kind of sitting with, sitting with those parts of our story and recognizing, like, the humanity there. you know, having understanding for what has happened in our life. And, one of the books I was reading was talking about, like, seeing how everything that happened or has happened to us, outside of like, really, you know, horrible trauma, right? Mm-hmm. at one point made sense. Right? I think we're talking more about, like, things that we have maybe done or acted upon. I feel like I just read, like, an awful news article this morning about child abuse, so that's at, like, the top of my head- Mm-hmm where I'm like, "Not that." Mm-hmm. you know, we're really talking about just, like, internal, internal world. but just seeing at some point in our life the things that we did, it, they made sense. Or the th- the parts of ourselves that we don't like or we have some disdain for or we have a hard time being compassionate toward- Mm-hmm at one point or at some point in our life made sense, you know? Like, we have to, we have to honor those parts of ourselves as well if we want to figure out how we make change happen. I really like what you said about, like, r- like, you referred it to a story, right? Like, the story of us. We all have our own story. And in the external world, all of these stories are interacting with each other, and I think what comes up a lot, at least in my experience, is, you know, everybody has their own thoughts and feelings about situations that happen, and those are usually rarely ever about the other people involved, right? Like, our own thoughts, experiences, and emotions are usually just a reflection of our inner world. Mm-hmm. Right? Of what's happening for us. So if we are, Okay, for example, the book that I'm reading right now, is about, like, parent-child relationships. Yeah. And, What book is it? It's called Motherhood: Facing and Finding Yourself. Okay. By Lisa Marchiano. but it does, like, mention a quote by C.G. Jung, but it says if there is something about the child that irritates us within, you know, that just irritates us at large, it's often not something that needs to be changed within the child, but more often than not something that needs to be changed within ourselves. Like, every situation that happens, whether it be, you know, that you experience, rejection or, fear or, even, like- Happiness, right? Like all of those things are just a reflection of some earlier experience that we had. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. we don't have control over what anybody else does or says- or thinks or feels in this world. We only have control over what we think and feel, and oftentimes some of those, like, primary primal experiences, right, of, of rejection or of sadness or of happiness, they stem from something much, much deeper. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And something that maybe gets... The more it comes up and the more often that it is, I wouldn't say, for lack of a better word, like- I don't know. I don't know if triggered's the right word, but the more often this experience comes up, right, the, the maybe the louder that it gets. Mm-hmm. Right? Because it's, it's trying to express an underlying need- Yeah that, maybe we are or are not ready to, to face or recognize or say that we need. Mm-hmm. Right? I think a lot of, individuals that I work with really kind of struggle with knowing even what it is that they need. Yeah. Right? I mean, I think we all do to some extent because we're, we're out in the world performing. We're out in the world- Mm-hmm trying to showcase our best foot forward, so to speak, without realizing that a lot is happening underneath the surface. Maybe we don't even know what we need 'cause we haven't slowed down enough to recognize that we have a need. Mm-hmm. We all have needs. Or we've been so focused on, like, others' needs. Mm-hmm. Or what others need from us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And maybe sometimes too, like, other people get their own needs met by, you know, maladaptive behaviors or patterns or maladaptive coping. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I think about that in terms of maybe, like, intergenerational experiences. Yeah. Or, like, meeting the needs of different generations because that's how it's always been done. Mm-hmm. But really, like, we're only responsible for meeting our own needs or for recognizing what our own needs are. Yeah. So bringing it back to, you know, that shadow part of us. Our, our needs are always changing, our values are always changing. Mm-hmm. nothing stays constant, and I think the, the harder maybe that we try to hold on to some of those parts of ourselves, maybe the, the more stuck we get. Yeah. like you talking about some of that as well brings me back, like, to this quote that I was, I think it's from R- Ralph Waldo Emerson. Mm-hmm. And h- the quote that was in one of the books I was reading was just, "Nothing can save you but yourself." Mm-hmm. And, like, I think people spend so much time waiting for the world around them to kind of allow... How do I wanna put this? Because you're talking about, like, you know, it's important for us to recognize what our needs are or to, you know, actually slow down or do the therapy process- Mm-hmm and recognize that, like, it's okay that we have needs and that it's okay f- that we ask for them to be met. But I think people spend a lot of time waiting for the world around them to just meet those underlying needs versus... And I think that's because some of that's how people are socialized. Well, if you were socialized to meet other people's needs, well, then you're waiting around for someone to meet yours. Mm-hmm.

No One Saves You But You

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Right? Versus ever kind of taking the time, or having the privilege to take the time to identify or uncover and discover what those needs even are, right? Like, there's, again, that, like, conflict with our internal world and outer world. Why can't people just see? Why can't people just do, right? why was I in a family system that, you know, this was the outcome? But we have to, again, accept those parts of our stories and recognize that, you know, es- especially as adults, that it is... Like, no one's coming to save us. You know? Like, I think that on the g- on the opposite side of that, that, yes, so much healing happens within relationship. I think it's an, an important part of any healing process is the relational piece. But no one is coming to save us. So what does that mean for us in our healing journeys, right? if, if you really sit with and internalize that n- no one can save you but yourself, what choices do you then have to wake up and realize that you have to make? Mm-hmm. And I think that that's a, that can be a powerful realization and, can really bring us into our own power. Mm-hmm. When we can, you know, move past the discomfort of recognizing, like, it is on us, right? To see the past and to figure out how we respond to the things that have happened to us and how we choose to move forward. Mm-hmm. it is on us, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think, too, like you were saying, the image that I got in my head when you were talking about waking up to that inner authority, it was just, kinda like a puzzle, right? Like, you're talking about waiting for the universe and the, like, circumstances to just fall into place, but realizing that we have the capacity to just rearrange the entire puzzle. Yeah. And there may be discomfort in that. Mm-hmm. People may not like, right? Like, the relationships in our life may not like when they notice that we're changing. Mm-hmm. Or we're beginning to, quote-unquote, "be selfish"- Mm-hmm and say no or prioritize our needs sometimes. But just because the world around us may, it may cause conflict, doesn't mean that we're wrong. Mm-hmm. And the fact that, like, pieces may no long, may no longer fit where they used to fit either, like... Mm-hmm. And that's okay. Yeah. I get this image of, like, carving marble or something, right? Like carving... Like, we, we chip off parts of, parts of ourselves that no longer, are seen as worthy- Mm-hmm in a larger sense. Not to say that they aren't, but, like, you know, the more that you chip away, the less of you there is. Mm. Mm-hmm. And it's like carving marble. You can't put marble back. Yeah. Like, it's... Once it's gone, it's gone. But, like, the rigidity in that, right? And the fact that people don't want... People are so uncomfortable with change. Maybe we are uncomfortable with change. Mm-hmm. And really just kind of- Reassessing the way that we think about ourselves, right? Like, we're not, we're not marble to just keep chipping away at. Yeah. Because at the end of that, there's nothing left. Right. You keep chipping away at the, at the- The core Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you kind of lose yourself along the way, but, realizing that all of those pieces, Yeah the, there are, like, ugly parts or hideous parts of ourselves- Mm-hmm that we would prefer to cut off, but they're actually really vital. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. We can't have one without the other. Yeah. And I think the, the idea that we can just choose one without the other leads a very unbalanced life and a very unbalanced- Right experience. Well, and so the book that I was, I pulled this from, she was just referencing an old Irish tale, which I think is okay to reference the old Irish tale that she's talking about here. Mm-hmm. and even if not, like the book is "Tarot for Change" by Jessica Dore. That's where this is coming from. But she just says, she talks about this old Irish tale of five sons who stop at a well while traveling. They're thirsty, but the well is guarded by an old woman whom, is described, as just variously unwholesome, warped, crooked shins garnished with massive ankles, a pair of capacious shovels, knotty knees, and livid nails. And it says, "The woman says she will gladly give the young men water, but only if they give her a kiss. And so one by one, the men recoil in disgust, and they opt for dehydration over having to make contact with something they see as hideous until one

The Well Story And Self-Compassion

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of the sons makes his request for water, and when asked for a kiss, he eagerly says yes, and not only that, agrees to lie down." And she says, which I'm pretty sure means that he's open to having sex with her. So he's fully accepted this grotesque woman, right? He's like, "Oh, I'm not, I will not only kiss you, like I am willing to have intercourse with you." he leans in for the kiss, and when his lips touch hers, she transforms into a woman who meets the beauty standards, standards of that day and place, and it's later discovered that she is royal rule. she just goes on to talk about in her little, her chapter on justice, that like we are kind of punishing ourselves when we just continue to push against and, Not accept the parts of ourselves that we may find grotesque or, you know, again, ugly, right? Like, until we, we, we, we have to learn to have compassion for those parts of ourselves. Mm-hmm. Or else, like, we are just endlessly punishing ourselves, and then coming back to the justice card, like, there will never be balance, right? the last thing she said in this chapter was just kind of highlighting the importance that we do not have to love or even like ourselves to be kind to ourselves. Like, the whole kind of what, leads up to her talking about, or what leads up to that sentence is her just talking about, like, we... Like, when we are kind to ourselves, something follows that, right? Like, something changes in our brain when we can just try to be compassionate to ourselves regardless. Like, w- we do not have to like ourselves, and maybe liking ourselves or, you know, having self-love, self-acceptance, self-kindness can come from the practice of just learning how to be compassionate. Mm-hmm. and two, I was just saying, like, how, how often are we compassionate or kind to people that we don't like in our day-to-day, and why can we not just do that in, like, internally? but she was talking in her chapter about justice too, how there's so many old, like, folktales and tales of, the similar things. Like, in those tales and in those stories, the people who are repulsed by the ugly or, what's another... What's a good word? The grotesque, right? Like, those people are always punished, and sometimes severely so, right? It is the people who are willing to, accept ugly or accept grotesque or accept whatever it is that may, you know, for the time just be seen as ugly. It's the people who are working to accept those things and meet them with kindness who are often rewarded. It's like, what does that mean in relation to ourselves and our own mental health and our own healing journeys- Mm-hmm you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. What do we push against that we should actually be practicing to accept? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think it's easier, too, when you, like, are able to interact with the world from the frame of mind that this person, you know, maybe- Maybe there was An experience where, like, anger was the primary feeling of any interaction, and just realizing that that person's anger probably stems from something else. Mm-hmm. Right? Their pa- their anger is probably less so about whatever it was that happened, and more so about something that came up for them- Yeah in- internally, right? Mm-hmm. And so recognizing when that comes up for ourselves, right? Like, when you feel angry about something, it's probably less so about the situation and more so about, you know, some unmet need or some prior experience- Mm-hmm that hasn't been processed or recognized yet. Yeah. I think too just about the symbology in that, did you say it was an Irish tale? Mm-hmm. Irish tale. The, like the water symbolizes like a, a, like almost like a vital li- like life or a wholeness- Yes life and to, to have to go through, You know, there's something guarding the water, right? There's some aspect of that experience that's guarding the water. In the story it's- Mm-hmm this old woman who is unattractive and unappealing. unattractive and unappealing, right? And, and you have to be able to accept that or embrace that in order to access the wholeness or the- The fullness or the vitality. Yep. And for the other four who didn't, right? For the other four who denied that acceptance or that embrace, like, they chose dehydration, which symbolically, I think, you know, becoming a carcass of oneself, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you, you're only living a one-sided experience- Right instead of accepting the, the shadow side or the other half. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And how many of us are living one-sided experiences? Right. We're living with so much internal conflict. Mm-hmm. We're, like, depriving ourselves of life- Mm because we, we struggle so much to accept the parts of ourselves that, you know, like, we define, we define as ugly. Right? Like, I work with so many clients where I'm like, "I wish you could just see what I see in you." Mm-hmm. You know? because I, I don't see any of my clients that way. and so many of them struggle to see that within themselves. Mm. And I'm like, "If you c- if you could get there, if you could express that compassion to yourselves and feel that within yourself, like, wow, what would change?" Mm-hmm. I think at any given point, right, c- coming into contact with these parts of ourselves is an opportunity for change, is a threshold for change, right? Mm-hmm. Like, will we allow ourselves to be changed- Yeah one of the, tales or just the symbolic, images that comes up in this book that I'm reading is the image of a well. Mm. and the, and the well is like a, a threshold to, to the unknown, right? Like- Yeah you cast the bucket down into the well and just hope that water comes up, right? But you do have to, in the book it, it makes a point to say that you do have to actively, like- cast that bucket down the well for the water to continue to flow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, in, in, in actuality, in, in real life, like, if you don't use a well, it will dry up. so the fact that there has to be that relationship with that, that darkness or that unknown parts of ourselves or the parts of ourselves that we've cast down the well. That we've thrown to the bottom. But that you pull water up from that well, and that water, like, water is vital. You need water to survive, Right. Like, and, and the symbology that even comes, comes from that, like, going down to the bottom of the well is, is dark. It's, it's moist. It's also fertile. Mm-hmm. Grounds for change and grounds for, you know, a new opportunity to embrace the parts of yourself that you have thrown down that well. And can you come back from that a changed person or like a, a more whole, I guess- person because you've accepted that there- Are parts of yourself that you need. I'll just finish with, but I'll read this little thing that I had wrote down just for my own, like, understanding after everything that I had read the other night. So I just said, "Justice is being with all of what is, understanding our motives for change when it is change that we seek. The world is unfair, at times unjust, and there is a lack of control that we have over our physical existence, meaning that bad things will happen. We will experience grief, trauma, deep sorrow, regret, et cetera. But there is importance in accepting these feelings and really being with them to achieve some level of equilibrium that we see in the Justice card, and experiencing that, being with that allows us to fully choose how we respond moving forward." and then just from the Lindsay Mack book, Tarot for the Wild Soul, she says, "Being with it all allows for us, paradoxically, to be the most direct agent and advocate

Final Reflections And Next Guests

39:52

for change in our own lives." So there's just, again, highlighting the, like, we have to be with everything. We have to be with it all. No feeling is bad or good. no part of ourselves is bad or good. Like, we have to work to accept it all in order to have change. Mm-hmm. Well, that feels like a good conclusion- I think so too to this episode- Mm-hmm of "The Justice Card." thank you so much for listening, and we are excited to bring a couple of, different guests on in the next few months. So stay tuned- Yeah, we're still working on the guests for those. Mm-hmm. Yes, just need to, um, coordinate schedules and times. But, thanks so much for listening today, and we'll see you next time. Bye.